Classical vs. Modern Architecture: Why Buildings Shape Us

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0:00 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Meriwether Academy podcast. My name is Warren. I run the academy and today we have a very special guest. Justin Shubow is the president of the National Civic Arts Society where for over a decade he has led the fight to return beauty and classical design to America's public buildings and public spaces. He previously served as the chairman of the US Commission of Fine Arts. In this past January, he was named the first chairman of the Transportation Department's beautifying transportation infrastructure council. The New York Times has called him one of modern architectures biggest critics. And the reason why we are talking to him today is because here in September on Wednesday the 23rd, Mr. Shubow is coming to Nashville for a special event with the academy hosted at the Belmont Mansion where we will have a

1:02 conversation on beauty, on architecture, on civic spaces, and what all of these things mean for our cultural identity as Americans. Justin, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. So, I've been reading a little bit about your background and you studied music, you studied philosophy, you studied law, I believe it was Colombia, University of Michigan and Yale. And now you are at the head of a architectural and civic beauty uh organization. So, how did you end up in this world from the world that you previously existed in? Uh, well, it's uh it's a long story, but I think it does go back to my interest in philosophy. I was getting a PhD in philosophy and during that time

2:02 um started to read about how architecture matters, how buildings embody ideas, how they shape how we think and feel. Um and also I had previously had an interest in architecture. um just you know wondering why does the world look the way it looks and then I came across a book by Tom Wolf called from bow house to our house little tiny pamphlet about modern architecture which helped sort of explain some of my intuitions about you know it seems like the world has gotten a lot uglier since World War II and that why is that the case so I'd always had these you know interests even going back to graduate school. But then later um after attending law school, I went to work for a nonprofit in DC and quickly joined the board of the National Civic Arts Society, the the nonprofit that I now lead. Um at the time it was a small

3:04 organization with no staff, but a friend of mine said, "Oh, you're moving to DC. You got to join this organization given your passion for architecture." And in a few months, I was running the organization and we launched and led this huge fight to try to stop the proposed design for the National Eisenhower Memorial in Washington. And that fight started just taking over my life. I wrote a huge report on it and I was basically sneaking out of the office to do this work. And so after, you know, being a volunteer at the National Civic Arts Society for a couple of years, I took the leap to actually do it for a living. Um, which meant I had to learn how to fund raise and do all that kind of fun stuff. But, you know, in the time that I've been, you know, working professionally, I've been teaching myself more and more. I mean,

4:06 admittedly, I'm not an architect. Never went to architecture school. Um, I'm self-taught pretty much for better or for worse. Um, but I'd like to think that my not going to architecture school has been um, a benefit since I was never brainwashed. The vast majority of architecture schools have a particular vision of what the nature of architecture is and I was never taught that that is the only way to think. Um and then ultimately you know my background in the law I've um you know that helped me put it helped me be in touch with people in politics and now what I do to a large extent is work at the intersection intersection of architecture and politics and at the same time I'm still involved in philosophy because I think this is very much tied up with you know how do we create the world in we wish to live. This is a inherently valuel laden um exercise.

5:12 Yeah. You know, in some of your interviews, I remember hearing you talking about Washington and Jefferson and they were not formally trained architects. These were self-educated men in that field. And kind of like how you mentioned you've self-educated yourself. I see that as being a way the American ideal. think that you know the Franklin ideal, the American ideal is a self-educated man who pursues something through his own will. Um, very cool. So, in this whole conversation, you know, the the word civic beauty, architectural beauty, really just beauty in itself is kind of at the center of your work. So, what is civic beauty? Is it objective? Is it subjective? And why is that so important to clarify? Well, I would say that civic beauty is beauty for the public. It's not private beauty. It's not your house that might

6:16 be at the end of a winding road. Uh you know, civic is for the police, for the people. And throughout history, um, various societies and leaders to varying degrees have cared about creating a civic sense of purpose through the built environment. Um, you know, it's important to understand that architecture is not like the fine arts. You know, you're forced to live with architecture whether or not you want to. Unlike a painting that's hung up in a museum, you don't need to go to the museum. You don't need to read a particular novel, but architecture is forced upon us. And so therefore, it's the most political of the arts. And if society cares about civic beauty, well then you will create a world that is more welcoming, that is more orderly, that makes us feel pride

7:16 and who we are in our community, in our nation, um and also connects us to our path past because so often civic beauty um is a kind of continuity going back generations. Um, you know, I'm not going to try to define what beauty is. Um, philosophers throughout the centuries have tried to do so, but certainly I think we can gree can agree upon some of the factors that go into beauty. So, for instance, harmony, symmetry, proportion, um, you know, anthropomorphism, these are all um elements that go into beauty. And there is widespread intersubjective agreement about what is beautiful. Um it's not just like oh you like vanilla, I like chocolate. And there's no, you know, there's no way of settling debate. There are all sorts of places in the world that people agree are beautiful.

8:20 Whether it's Paris or looking at the Taj Mahal or the National Mall in Washington DC, people agree. And so there's something about these places that affect our human nature. Um, and just one, you know, not not to complicate matters too much, but you know, there's man-made beauty and then there's natural beauty. And I don't really think anyone doubts that a sunset is beautiful, right? Or certain vistas are beautiful. And it these things resonate with who we are. and great architects and designers um have been taught in that tradition and can continue to create beauty um in this day and age. Yeah, absolutely. Now is is architecture does it impact only those who know how to read it or is there also a subconscious thing that happens when we

9:21 go into a city and we're surrounded by these buildings? Does it affect everybody the same or are only people who have maybe learned how to read a facade the ones who are really impacted by it? architecture affects everybody whether that whether or not they know anything about it or whether or not they're even thinking about it. Um it is pervasive. Um you know so for instance if there was a heavy mass dangling above your head you would feel anxiety. Um or if there's an uneven floor you might feel uncertainty. By contrast, if there is a colonade um that is orderly, that's going to give you another sense of how the world is. Architecture is constantly influencing how we think or feel. Um and it's not just a matter of, you know, it's not just for estates who, as you said, know how to read a facade, who know the

10:24 difference between Corinthian, ionic, and doric and so on. Um it is absolutely affecting us. There are some places that people like to be or they think are beautiful. Even if they can't explain exactly why, right? Even if they're not architects or philosophers, they just know I like this. I don't like that. Um, so architecture absolutely matters even if you're not educated about it. Now, that's not to say that I don't think it's helpful to be educated. Um, you know, if people are fortunate enough to be able to influence what their environment looks like, the more educated you are, the more you can help create a more beautiful world. Absolutely. Now, going back to the American story, you've talked about how some of Jefferson's architectural designs uh were the first to vary from English

11:28 styles and how we acquired a unique identity as Americans through our buildings, through the White House, the Capitol building, things like this. So, what was the original American aesthetic identity? Well, as you were, you know, alluding to, both Washington and Jefferson were amateur architects. Jefferson was, in fact, extremely serious and was arguably a genius architecturally. Um, the the the the most important early American uh building is the Virginia State Capital that Thomas Jefferson designed. He based it on an ancient Roman temple in France and he thought that the classical tradition was timehonored and timeless and he wanted to create an American architecture that would procure the world's praise um that would create

12:31 beauty and also hearkens back to the best of the ancient world um whether it was Republican Rome or democratic Athens and the Virginia capital was the first significant um classical temple building in the United States that set a trend that lasted you know maybe 150 years. When you think about how many American buildings um look like classical temples and of course that includes the US capital, that all goes back to Jefferson and the Virginia capital. Um but you know, as I was mentioning about the US capital, you know, there was a design competition for that and Washington and Jefferson were directly involved in the competition. Um they both of them saw the virtues of classical architecture. Um Jefferson said that the US capital was you know

13:32 the first temple dedicated to the sovereignty of the people but using Athenian taste. I mean, they really saw the grand grand sweep of Western civilization and wanted to put America um in a good position in that. And the the tradition they began was that of classical public architecture as the architecture of American democracy. And people might take it for granted, but if you sit back and think about, you know, what are the most important public buildings in America? um whether it's the US capital, the Lincoln Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial, the Supreme Court, um these are all classical buildings. Um there is this harmony between them and it does connect our society back to ancient Greece and Rome. I mean the word capital itself, the US capital is spelled with an O. That's

14:34 because it's referring back to the uh the hill a hill in ancient Rome. Um so America these early Americans also saw the creation of Washington as a new Rome. Um you know even the the little river in Washington, the Tyber Creeks named after the river from Rome. And so there were all these um illusions to the past. And it also shows that the founders were being incredibly ambitious, right? They're not like, "Oh, we're starting some kind of provincial, you know, little country and, you know, we'll do our best." No, they had huge ambitions and the classical architecture was really a part of that. Yeah, absolutely. You know, at the academy here, our our whole mission, we're a nonprofit. Our mission is to serve uh men and boys, ultimately to build boy schools across the United States. And when creating our curriculums, we look back to the mindset of these founders of our country. We say, "What were they reading? What were they thinking about?

15:40 What was on their mind? Who were they emulating?" And it seems like every single time if you just ask that question, you end up uh at a really good place because these men, it was a unique convergence of the printing press. you had uh you know ex access to literature, you had these men who had leisure to study and people like Jefferson uh really are in my mind some of the most incredible people to ever live. Uh and Monachello is very cool to see. So back to the cultural identity of America. So when did this all shift? We're talking about America as being the new Rome. There are Greco Roman temples all over the place. What happened to where now we have these monstrosities that almost seem to uh snarl at us rather than invite us in like a true public building should in my

16:42 opinion. When did this all change? Um I mean essentially it changed after World War II. Um just but just to go back a little bit in time um you know we were talking about the founders and their architecture but for decades after that um you know there was Greek revival in the United States um inspired by the war for Greek independence but also you know seeing America as this you know new democracy and so therefore we got Greek temples not only for public buildings but even for people's houses and ordinary buildings and that really was the American architecture up until say the American Civil War. But as for when things really got ugly, I would say it was after World War II. Um, architectural modernism had been founded in Europe after World War I. Um, a lot of these architects thought that their civilization had self-destructed in the war and they were looking to

17:46 create a new world for a new kind of man. Um, there were all these competing manifestos, but most of them agreed that we needed a revolution in the social order and the architects sought to achieve that through their buildings. Um they were obsessed with machines, with functionalism, um with the idea of completely rejecting the past and starting over. Um and that is where modern architecture really comes out of. It has a couple of dictates. Um you know there's a kind of minimalism less is more. There is the metaphor of the machine. Um so for instance an important important architect the kabusier said a house is a machine for living it for living in and then there was this functionalism form follows function the idea that a building should look um should a building's design should be influenced purely by its function um as opposed to well let's think about what the

18:50 aesthetics of the building are and therefore we design it um appropriately. So these ideas um started coming out after World War I. Some of the leading modernist architects actually were um then immigrated to the United States and brought the modernism with them and started taking over um important American architecture schools. And so after World War II, modernism just became completely ascendant in America. um all the old historic styles were thrown out, you know, classical, Gothic, Roman-esque, you name it. There was a completely new style of architecture called modernism. And what you got are you know these rectal linear buildings like you know steel and glass grids. Um they are also in some ways like a representation of the assembly line of

19:50 the ethos of mass production. This this is coming out after World War I in Europe. And so therefore you get buildings that look like they could have been mass- prodduced. Um you also get um a style of architecture that completely ignores location and context. Um it's called the international style. The idea being that we're going to build the same kind of building where what regardless of what city it's in, regardless of where in the world we're talking, it doesn't matter what you know your historic city center looks like, we're going to put up this steel, glass, and concrete box. Um and in my view um by rejecting all of the wisdom of you know the historic styles of architecture um it's one reason why the world became cold. It became alienating and why ultimately there is so much um opposition to this style of

20:52 architecture. And then later it got even worse when you got um when you saw the advent of what is called brutalism in the midentury where you got these raw concrete buildings um that were intended to express the harsh truth of the reality of their times. So you got public buildings that looked threatening or the opposite of welcoming. Um again it was this idea of creating an entirely new world. I mean a lot of modernism was utopian but as we know if you study philosophy that utopianism often ends in dystopia. Um and I think we've we've seen a lot of that in the history of modern architecture. You know you you kind of touched on this. Could you speak more to the importance of architecture as a cultural identity? Maybe even as small as your local town

21:54 has a style that it uses or you live in some Bavarian village and your homes look a certain way. What What do we lose when everything starts to look the same? Yeah. I think that a lot of us don't want homogeneity in our environment. It's nice when certain places have local identity. Not just nice, but it's important. Um, you know, by having that local identity, by having the historical continuity, these places make you feel like you are at home in the world, that these are places made for beings like you, and that you are not necessarily interchangeable with people who might live in a different city or state or or country. and that there is something good about that that we're not just you know all global man without local identity. Um you know when people travel and go on vacation one of the things people love is to go to places that have

22:57 a local identity that you know Rome is not Paris is not you know Berlin or London. Um that there is this wonderful diversity of both people and of architecture. Um but you know some people have argued that you know with globalism that's why you get you know these glass buildings that look identical regardless of where you are in the world that you could have a glass skyscraper. It could be this. You don't you wouldn't know whether you're in Singapore or Rio de Janeiro or London. um the buildings themselves lack that local identity and um and that this this is a bad thing. Yeah, I agree. Uh so I want to ask about your executive orders. Uh these were written with your team. I believe was the the society that you guys wrote these. Uh could you talk about the executive order? I think it was 2016

24:04 when it was first uh mandated. You guys essentially required that federal architecture be built using classical styles and President Trump in his first term uh sent out this executive order. It was rescended uh during Biden's presidency and then I believe it was uh reapplied during President Trump's second term. So, what was the process like putting together an executive order like that? What were you guys hoping to accomplish and what has it accomplished? Well, first I just want to clarify about what the executive order uh does. Um it does not well first off it starts by saying talking about the importance of public buildings going back to the founding fathers who as great statesmen understood why these buildings matter and you know we're talking about you know US courous federal office buildings these important government um structures

25:08 the order requires that these buildings be beautiful um inspire the um American people and be respected by the general public um as opposed to say architectural elites who might have who have had a completely different agenda and set of preferences. I mean I was talking about the rise of modernism. I think a lot of ordinary people hate it while at the same time it's loved by architects and that is what is almost exclusively taught in architecture schools. So in President Trump's first term, he issued this order at the end of his of his first term and it said that there should be a special regard for classical and traditional architecture for federal buildings across the country. So it wasn't mandating any particular style and both of those terms were defined very broadly. So for instance, classical was everything from you know federal to art deco which is

26:14 the last of the classical styles even though it doesn't have say pediments and columns it still very much has classical principles within it. Likewise traditional was broadly defined to you know include Gothic Romanesque pueblo revival and you know all sorts of local local styles. Um the order was at I mean or is at because it was reissued in the second term in a slightly different form. The order is at its most stringent regarding Washington DC saying that Washington is and ought to be a classical city as intended by the founding fathers. And so all new federal buildings in Washington should be classical. Um because you know if you look at Washington DC I think in the minds of the American people it is absolutely a classical city. The most important buildings there are all classical while the most hated buildings in Washington like the FBI headquarters

27:15 this brutalist monstrosity they are modernist in architecture. Um so the order also um you know talks about how federal buildings became so much uglier after World War II especially with these 1962 so-called guiding principles for federal architecture. um they were a single page um slipped into a report on government office space and those principles are what cemented the hegemony of modernism. Um one of the key principles said that design shall flow from the architectural profession to the government and not vice versa. In other words, it was an abdication of authority from the government to the architects. The government telling saying to the architects, you tell us what we should be building as opposed to the government being in charge. Um, you know, going

28:18 back in time, you know, at one, you know, I talked about the classical tradition lasting 150 years. In fact, in 1901, the federal government um office overseeing these buildings said that classicism was uh official because it was it was the most beloved and appropriate style for these buildings. So it just shows that in the past there definitely had been directives um on this subject, but these 1962 guiding principles rejected official classicism and essentially made modernism de facto official. And that lasted, you know, up until President Trump took office. And in recent years, um you know, we not we have not just gotten, you know, bland or generic buildings. You have no idea what you're looking at. you have no idea that it's a civic building. It could be an office building. And you know, there is a difference between something that is civic and then say related to business. Um,

29:23 in more recent years, we've gotten some buildings that look like art projects or avantgard designs. Like I asked, you know, go go go Google the San Francisco Federal Building, which looks like some really scary robot that's going to shoot you with laser beams. Um or look at the Salt Lake City Federal Courthouse, which everyone compares to the Borg Cube from Star Trek, you know, the evil alien spaceship. Um this is not what we want as the physical embodiment of our ideals, which is what these buildings ought to be. So, President Trump's executive order completely overturned that system. He reissued it in his second term. Um, the in the second term, it explicitly amends those guiding principles. So, for instance, they now say design shall now flow from the needs and wants of the American people to the architectural profession and not vice versa. So, now the people are in charge. Um, and you know, as for the realworld

30:28 effects, um, one exciting one is the new courthouse in Chattanooga, the new US courthouse in Chattanooga is going to be classical in design. Um, the renderings have been unveiled um, on the internet. People should Google them. I think it's a gorgeous building. Um, it's what I would call Greco Deco in style, meaning it's a hybrid between Greek classical architecture and art deco. Um, I think it's very vibrant. It's very alive. Um, and it's and it's beautiful and it's going to and it also harmonizes with the historic architecture of Chattanooga. Um, it's going to be one of the most beloved buildings in the city already. It's the design has been wellreceived by the people there and I think it shows that the executive order um was wise and is leading to good results because ultimately the strongest argument for the order is going to be what gets

31:32 built. You know are these new buildings better than what had been built um in previous years? Let the public decide, you know, let let ordinary people decide. This is not about what architects want, but this is what the American people want. And I think buildings like this new Chattanooga courthouse demonstrate um just how great this executive order is. Now, you also have a project uh for Penn Station right now. you so you are I believe it's the first chairman of this new uh new committee that's been put together for the uh what is it the transportation national transportation agency uh it's federal council you're making transportation infrastructure beautiful and if I'm not mistaken Penn Station is the the project that you're focused on right now is that right uh these are unrelated things um so my nonprofit for over a decade has been

32:37 pushing for the new Penn Station in New York City to be classical in design. The original Penn Station completed in 1910 was this incredible gift to the city by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Um, and so it's an interesting and it was a this gorgeous classical building based on the ancient Roman baths of Carakala. soaring um main entrance hall with giant Corinthian columns. Um the building was so great that Langston Hughes wrote an entire poem about it called Pennsylvania Station. Um comparing it to a cathedral, a bull work for the soul. It was of you know in part, you know, private industry, right? But it was also ultimately a civic building with an indoor space where everyone could feel equals in our democracy. Um that building as great as it was was demolished in the 1960s. Um a time when

33:37 already the architectural establishment thought what why do we need these you know classical buildings hearkening back to um this ancient world that has nothing to do with us. Um, you know, one of the modernist architects said that this is like a fake toga clothed on people who lack confidence. You know, they wanted modern architecture to represent modern men. And Penn Station got demolished and above ground got replaced by Madison Square Garden, you know, a hideous building and and now the station is entirely below ground. It's like a a rabbit warrant. The most famous line about what happened at Penn Station comes from an art architectural critic Vincent Scully who said, "You you you used to enter the city like a god. Now you scuttle in like a rat." And so the good news is there's going to be a new pen station. The question is what is it going to look like? Um we started off

34:38 our project calling for the reconstruction of the original station essentially as it was with you know modern upgrades and there is all sorts of precedent in Europe of reconstructing demolished historic buildings. Uh, one of the key examples being the historic church in Dresden which had been demolished during World War II but was completely um rebuilt and is now a huge success in Germany. So it shows that reconstructions are possible. Um however over the years we slightly changed our um our goals instead of reconstructing the original rather to build a new station evocative of the original. still classical but different in various ways. Um just a couple months ago and I should say it's been pretty amazing that the plan we've been endorsing was one of the three finalists in a competition run by Amtrak. Amtrak just announced the winner a

35:41 couple months ago and although it's not our design and nothing is final yet, we you know we we'll still see if this design is going to get built, the one that was selected, but it was heartening to see that the winning design does have features alluding to classical architecture and the people who designed it basically said that yes, that was in part because of the political realities of the time. They were listening to Trump's executive order. They knew that classical architecture is in the air. And so, thus, I think that all of our years of effort have paid off if this design actually does get built. It is much better than than it would have been otherwise by having all of this classical illus these classical illusions, these classical references. Um, as for the transportation department, so I chair the beautifying transportation infrastructure council and that was created by the secretary of

36:43 transportation to improve the design quality of our infrastructure. I mean that's a huge subject. Bridges, roads, train stations, ports, you name it. But this design is pervasive. you know, it's more it's more pervasive than a federal courthouse here or government office building there. It's everywhere. And the secretary believes, and I think so many people would agree, that there's a lack of thought given to the aesthetics of our infrastructure. You know, we used to build gorgeous infrastructure like the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, right? the sorts of structures that represent America that you could imagine, you know, being in your passport or on currency. But then over the over over time, we're just getting mere works of engineering, you know, concrete, steel with no thought of design at all. And the hope is is that

37:45 this council um will change that. We we're coming up with principles of transportation design that will hopefully get implemented in the real world. Fantastic. Zooming out for a moment, you know, here in September, we're doing this event at the Belmont Mansion. We want to get 80 guys there to hear. You talk about civic beauty, architecture, aesthetics, these types of things. What does it benefit a man to have the knowledge of these things? How does a man benefit by being able to read a facade or by being more in touch with the feeling that a courtyard gives him? How does this improve our condition as human beings by engaging with uh an aesthetic education? Sure. So, I think one thing that would

38:45 be of a special interest to your organization, which by the way, I I didn't say earlier, I think it's an incredibly noble endeavor, what you're doing there in Nashville, and I can't wait to visit. Um, sounds like an amazing organization, an incredible school that you're trying to build, and I 100% support all of your efforts. In ancient Athens, um, young men took the aphibic oath, which is about all their duties and obligations toward the citystate. And part of that oath said that I will leave the city more beautiful than I found it. So beauty, public beauty was a part of their value system. But of course, even if you have that goal, you have to know how do you obtain it? And you need to learn about architecture, the history, the tradition, what has been successful in the past. Um, you know, someone once joked, I've seen the past and it works, right? No, I don't think anyone's denying, for instance, that classical

39:51 architecture is not beautiful. They'll just say, oh, well, that's not right for who we are today. You know, we have airplanes and rocket ships and, you know, we're so modern. Why why should we build? and you know the way the founder founding fathers wanted to build or even worse you know these dead white males in in Greece and Rome. But if you want to build beautiful you need to learn the ways to do that that there is wisdom in the tradition and the more you learn about the tradition you will learn what how to make how how to make the world a more beautiful place. Um and it it makes sense that there's an obligation here as I was talking about you know architecture creates the world in which we live. We can build a world that is uplifting and inspiring that improves our mood that makes us feel proud of who we are and optimistic or you can create an environment that's alienating and dysfunctional that makes you feel like

40:53 there is no order in the world. um there's chaos or there's ugliness and you know leaders or influential people in politics or in business or in government can hopefully make a better world and that's why I would think young men should learn about architecture. Um you know in the past part of classical education was learning some of this. I mean one way to that they used to get that knowledge was through what was called the grand tour. You know, if you were rich enough, you would travel across Europe seeing all the the great works of architecture and of art and learning through exposure what is good. Um, you know, there was there was one art art critic who said that you have to wash your eyeballs. That's how you develop your aesthetic sense. Now, of course, not everyone can travel to Europe, but you but there there are great works in America, too, that people

41:54 can visit. Um, and at the same time, you know, we now have photography and movies, and so you can still get a sense of architecture and art, you know, on your computer screen in a way that it would have been hard to do in a book in the in the 19th century. Um, and you know, I myself, you know, I said that I'm self-taught. I don't think I could have gotten to where I am without the internet. I mean, now you can look up any building ever built in history essentially and you can go on a Wikipedia binge and learn about this and Google that. Um, you know, without the internet, I'd have to go to a library, pull out this book, it mentions a building, and then you'd have to go run over and pull out that. I mean, you could I mean, the internet is unbelievable in what you can learn. Um, or I'm sure I mean, I'm there are free lectures. Um, some of them created by a great nonprofit called the Institute for Classical Architecture and Art. You

42:57 could just watch lectures online um to educate yourself on these subjects. Um, and I I find it inherently interesting um why does the world look the way it does? Um, to learn the history, to learn some of the um, you know, I I was saying wisdom. I mean, a lot of architecture, historic architecture has solved problems uh, like ar like um, an aesthetic problem. So, for instance, when you have like say you're in a room and you have a a flat wall meet a flat ceiling, well, at that um intersection there is sometimes what seems like a slight shadow, kind of like a darkness, but architects, you know, develop moldings that you put where the ceiling meets the wall and it solves that aesthetic problem. That's an example of of what I'm talking about. It's a small little thing, but over time, creative people and geniuses have

44:02 solved architectural problems and figured out how to create beauty in the world. Um, and also create like systems that can be applied even if you're not an architect. Um, if you follow some very basic rules, you know, you'll end up with a house for instance that that is pleasing. Now, if you could mandate a tradition in America where as soon as a man turns 18, he has to take a pilgrimage to go study one building anywhere in the country and he spends a week studying it, taking notes, drawing it from every angle. What building would you want every young man in America to study? Well, one building that immediately comes to mind is the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. It's a grand Greek temple with the steps leading up colonade. Um, and inside the temple where in the

45:07 ancient world you would have found say a statue of Zeus is this incredible statue of Abraham Lincoln seated, brooding, thinking about the fate of the republic. On the walls are the Getty are inscribed the Gettysburg address, his second inaugural. It's impossible not to feel inspired in that space. I mean and we should not take it for granted. I mean that is a quote unquote modern building that was built in the 20th century and there were some even early modernists who opposed it saying why are we building some pastiche of an ancient Roman temple? We can do all this different stuff in this day and age, but you know, because it's not exactly as exactly if Abraham Lincoln lived in Athens in 400 BC either, but it's part of Washington DC. It is at the western end of the National Mall looking all the way down the mall to a statue of Ulisses Srant on a horse and then behind him is

46:12 the US capital building. It's the most important access in America. Um, but you know, you go to the Lincoln Memorial, as I was saying, you can't fail to be inspired. You feel humbled. You feel the presence of greatness. I think it makes you love your country. Um, and you also realize why it's such a place for power. You know, why did Martin Luther King give his I have a dream speech? Because he's tapping on the power of the space. And I would say not just power but beneficent power because you could have negatively powered spaces too that make you feel overwhelmed or oppressed. But I think it is a great evocation of American democracy. It is beautiful which I didn't say like it's absolutely beautiful. It's symmetrical left right. It's balanced. All the proportions are right. And I think it's a great place. I mean it is Americans of all of all kinds make pilgrimages to it. Um it was effective when it was built and it's

47:17 going to be effective for hundreds of years. Um that's something else that we need to think about. You know buildings last a long time. And so that's another reason why architecture matters so so much. It's not ephemeral. Um, you need to get it right and think about, you know, not just the next 10 years, 20 years. If you're doing great buildings, they could even last hundreds of years. And the Lincoln Memorial, you know, will be there for centuries. Absolutely. Now, here in September, you're coming to Nashville, and Nashville is unique. You know, we had so many universities here back in the day that we earned the name Athens of the South. And then at the Centennial Exposition, we built a 1 one scale replica of the Parthonon, which sat there, started to fall apart until we redid it in concrete. It was originally a temporary structure, but the people of Nashville loved it so much they begged the uh group that hosted the exposition to just leave it up. And then

48:21 I think it was around 20 or 30 years later, they said, "All right, let's redo this thing and make it permanent." And they redid it in concrete. What does it mean for a city to aspire to the legacy of something like ancient Athens? And is is that something that we've lost or are cities still reaching for the stars like this? Yeah. Um well, for I'm in I'm greatly looking forward to my visit to Nashville. I've never been there before and definitely want to see um the this Parthonon building. I mean obviously in 1897 when that building was constructed the civic leaders were thinking in a way that a lot of our leaders today are not thinking. Um you know how many Americans even know what Athens is ancient Athens and and why it matters. Um so much education today does not teach western civilization. you know, you'll learn global history. Um, or you don't learn

49:22 the roots of our our way of life, you know, Athens, Jerusalem, Rome. And it used to be that people were educated in such a way that it was like obviously the case that Athens mattered, right? They felt heirs to that tradition. Um, and you know, you know, I talked about my background in philosophy. Um, you know, if you study philosophy, you do go back to the ancients. you do read Aristotle and Plato and those thinkers are still alive today. It if you if you study the history of philosophy um and see where our belief systems come from and where the birth of so much wisdom comes from. Well, it's also not surprising that we might build in architectural styles that hearken back to that era, right? It's not as if that era is foreign to us that has nothing to to do with us like say, you know, ancient Babylonian architecture. Maybe it was great, but that's not really the

50:25 part of our heritage. Um, and the the civic leaders of Nashville at that time were thinking about the past. They were highly educated um in a way that so many people, so many Americans unfortunately are not today. Um, you know, I'm sure that your school will teach about that time period and why it was so important. The founding fathers were immersed in the study of the classics. Um, I myself also benefited for college. I went to Columbia University which is one of the few colleges le left that have a great books curriculum. So day one we were all reading the Iliad. doesn't matter what you were going to major in, who you were, every single student was reading the Iliad. Um, or in your second or your sophomore year, everyone's reading Plato's Republic. And it just gives you that broad education.

51:26 Um, I benefited enormously from it. I in high school did not know what philosophy was. I didn't study philosophy, but The Great Books introduced me to this subject and then ultimately decided, well, this is what I wanted to major in. And maybe I will even try to be a professor someday. Um, I wish everyone in America got a great books education. Um, you know, ideally starting in high school like I think you're intending to do and you know, maybe you don't go into the Iliad as intensely as you would in college, but you get a taste. You get a taste. And um someone once said that, you know, a great books education or or a true college education is really the first draft of your learning. I mean, when you're 18 years old, how much life experience do you have? How much can you get from the Iliad or the Odyssey or Plato? You're you're getting a you're getting a

52:26 rough draft. But then hopefully later in your life when you're of an adult, which with much more life experience, you can go back and read the classics and really appreciate the profoundity um in a way that you might not have when you were 18 years old. Um you know, that is now I'm just talking about philosophy, not about architecture, but that that you know that is um a reason why leisure is so important. You know, like let's say you're almost 50 like me. Yeah, you have a family, you have a job, there's a lot going on, but hopefully you can s find some time to read serious books to do serious reflection. And if you had read these books when you were young, they know they're not going to intimidate you, right? Like maybe you didn't understand all of Dante's Inferno when you were 20, but now that you're 50, you'll get it more. you're not you're these are not scary books. Um and also you even know what the great books are

53:30 like you know when you have time as a mature adult these are some of the books that you should reflect upon um later in life. Yeah, absolutely. I can't agree more. I recently picked up one of the uh 1952 Encyclopedia Bratannica great book sets that they uh started to sell and then Harvard put some out and I I think that it's some really fantastic really fantastic stuff and you're absolutely right. It will be a core part of our curriculum at our school. Well, Justin, I don't want to hold you up any longer. Thank you so much for your time today. I'm I'm really excited for having you come to Nashville. For anybody who's watching uh the video and wants to learn more about your work, could you maybe mention websites or social media profiles where they can find more about you? Sure. So, the National Civic Arts Society's website is civicart.org. Um you can also find us on Twitter um at

54:35 civicart society. I think it is. I should know that by heart. Yeah, I think it's civic art society. I mean, I myself um have a lot of writings um both some of them are on the National Civic Arts Society website, but they're also at my personal website, shou.com. Um and I'm also also on Twitter. I mean, I mentioned that new Chattanooga federal courthouse. I posted the the design of it on X and it got a million views. a million. So I think it really is tapping into something in the culture. People are excited by a a revival a new revival of classical architecture. I mean classical architecture was revived in the Renaissance. It was revived um by the neocclassicists like say the time of the founding fathers. It was revised revived around the turn of the 19th century. Just look at the parthonon in um in

55:37 Nashville. And why can't we have another revival in this day and age? If things are wise, they're wise throughout history. Absolutely. Well, thank you again for your time this morning and I look forward to seeing you here in Nashville. Yep. Me too.